But this isn't what happened in the Elizabeth Moon situation.
I am really starting to regret mentioning Moon in this, because you're right, that isn't how things went down with her. Mostly, the furor over her comments has been the irritant that's had me spinning on how we engage these things when they happen.
With the exception of some early, really sharp things I saw being said early on, all of this is less about her than it is about the a sort of amorphous elephant of absolutism that I keep catching out of the corner of my eye.
I should probably clarify my post to make that more obvious. I thought it was before, but re-reading I see that it's not.
Some people who fail are going to be unrepentant, defensive, and cleave to attitudes and biases while shutting others down. Some of those are probably True Believers, some of them are probably freaked out because that's a difficult thing to confront, and may come around and/or apologize later. Some of them may just be ignorant and later on will find the whole thing truly regrettable. Some people make genuine errors of judgement or typography and are just as aghast as everyone else.
There may be a few people who resolutely won't accept apologies no matter what, but every time I've seen someone who failed respond with a sincere apology that showed that they actually understood what they'd done wrong, the furor has died down and the person who erred was accepted back into the community...
I confess, I'm on the fence about this. I've seen that happen, but I've also been in conversations where a thing somebody did years ago and apologized for will still come up, or that someone I know has been on the receiving end of that. It may be that those conversations weren't representative, or that the persons involved were being overly circumspect.
It's a mixed bag, I think, and much of that bag is good. Some of it, though, keeps me up at night.
I think you're right in theory, but I also think that's not what's happening if one really looks closely at the patterns in the way most of these things keep playing out.
I'm not sure I agree 100%. I'd offer up Elizabeth Bear as an example of somebody who's done at least some of the right things, but gets nailed for things fairly and -- I think -- unfairly both. Because she's failed in the past, all eyes are on her. The bar is, I think, awfully high for her these days.
In her place, I can't help but think I'd have trouble wanting to stand in that place for very long, but removing yourself from a situation to process or be sane tends to get a negative response too.
I don't know. It could be that I'm suffering from an imbalance of compassion and wisdom, or that I'm inadvertently concern trolling something others have already figured out. I'm still thinking on it.
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Date: 2010-10-24 10:31 pm (UTC)I am really starting to regret mentioning Moon in this, because you're right, that isn't how things went down with her. Mostly, the furor over her comments has been the irritant that's had me spinning on how we engage these things when they happen.
With the exception of some early, really sharp things I saw being said early on, all of this is less about her than it is about the a sort of amorphous elephant of absolutism that I keep catching out of the corner of my eye.
I should probably clarify my post to make that more obvious. I thought it was before, but re-reading I see that it's not.
Some people who fail are going to be unrepentant, defensive, and cleave to attitudes and biases while shutting others down. Some of those are probably True Believers, some of them are probably freaked out because that's a difficult thing to confront, and may come around and/or apologize later. Some of them may just be ignorant and later on will find the whole thing truly regrettable. Some people make genuine errors of judgement or typography and are just as aghast as everyone else.
There may be a few people who resolutely won't accept apologies no matter what, but every time I've seen someone who failed respond with a sincere apology that showed that they actually understood what they'd done wrong, the furor has died down and the person who erred was accepted back into the community...
I confess, I'm on the fence about this. I've seen that happen, but I've also been in conversations where a thing somebody did years ago and apologized for will still come up, or that someone I know has been on the receiving end of that. It may be that those conversations weren't representative, or that the persons involved were being overly circumspect.
It's a mixed bag, I think, and much of that bag is good. Some of it, though, keeps me up at night.
I think you're right in theory, but I also think that's not what's happening if one really looks closely at the patterns in the way most of these things keep playing out.
I'm not sure I agree 100%. I'd offer up Elizabeth Bear as an example of somebody who's done at least some of the right things, but gets nailed for things fairly and -- I think -- unfairly both. Because she's failed in the past, all eyes are on her. The bar is, I think, awfully high for her these days.
In her place, I can't help but think I'd have trouble wanting to stand in that place for very long, but removing yourself from a situation to process or be sane tends to get a negative response too.
I don't know. It could be that I'm suffering from an imbalance of compassion and wisdom, or that I'm inadvertently concern trolling something others have already figured out. I'm still thinking on it.